TRANSCRIPTION

Jay Ruderman:

Welcome to All About Change. Now is a great time to check out my new book about activism, Find Your Fight. You can Find Your Fight wherever you buy books, and you can learn more about it at jayruderman.com. Today, my guest is Steve Preston, the CEO of Goodwill Industries. When I think of Goodwill, I think about the big stores where you could donate clothes, and buy them secondhand. But those stores are just the first level of what Goodwill Industries is about. Those stores fund an international organization that provides job training, employment placement services, and other community-based programs for people who face barriers to their employment. They support veterans and individuals who lack job experience in education, or face employment challenges, such as those people who are formerly incarcerated, which is what Steve and I will be discussing today. Steve Preston, welcome to All About Change. Thank you for being my guest today.

Steve Preston:

Yeah, thank you for having me.

Jay Ruderman:

When you think of Goodwill, we think of stores where people can sell clothes, and buy clothes, but the organization, as I understand, has one of the best rates of employing people in the country.

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People line up early to attend Goodwill’s Second-Chance job fair event.

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Well, here at Goodwill, that’s what we do. We help people find jobs, and we improve people through the power of work. And so that way, it’s always good to help and give someone that second chance that’s down on their luck. We have several programs that we offer to help people be job-ready, but it’s important that we, Goodwill, be that resource for someone that’s looking for a hand up, and not a handout.

Jay Ruderman:

And I think that that’s something that’s not fully known by the public. Can you talk a little bit about that, about how that became a major role for Goodwill?

Steve Preston:

Yeah, interestingly, it’s always been a major role for Goodwill, and as the economy changes, and grows, and job requirements change, we adapted that to make sure that we can support people in that competitive economy. Almost 125 years ago, we were founded by a minister who was working with the poorest of the poor in Boston. Much of what he was doing in that particular effort was just supporting human needs, helping people with food, helping people get decent housing, helping their children go away to camp, and things like that. And what he realized in the process of giving away clothing to people in need, and this was used clothing that he connected from the people of Boston, was that if they could repair, and clean, and resell that clothing, they would’ve a business, and people could get jobs, and training, and have a different kind of future by being able to support themselves.

So over the last, once again, almost 125 years, that has morphed into a massive social enterprise, with over 3,300 stores. But in addition to employment in those stores, we have over 600 job centers, where nearly two million people a year, not in the stores, but outside the stores, come to us for job training, for coaching, for placement, for other types of human services. We also have business contracts that we have either with the federal government or with other employers, where we provide support activities. We may be doing fulfillment for a website, or we may be packing boxes for a shipper, or a manufacturer. In those cases, we are able to provide employment for people with many challenges, and in many cases, for people with disabilities. One of the things about people with disabilities is, people often see the disability, they don’t see the ability.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. Right.

Steve Preston:

And so many people have unique abilities, and in some cases, when we think of people who are disabled, many of them have outsized abilities that may be greater than other people, the population. Many people on the spectrum, for example, have cognitive abilities that make them very adept at certain tasks or functions that are really outsized. So we provide that support through in-store employment development, through these business contracts, but also through job centers that are very specifically focused on training, development, job placement, and other kinds of support to help people move forward in their lives.

Jay Ruderman:

I want to focus right now on the unique challenges of people who were formerly incarcerated and looking for work. Can you talk about the data and the success in finding work for them?

Steve Preston:

Let me just start out by saying, this is a really important question, because work is enormously important for people coming out of incarceration. We see people who are unable to maintain employment experience a recidivism rate of over 50% over the first three years, whereas their peers who maintain employment, even for one year post-release, have a recidivism rate of just 16%, and that came out of a Chamber of Commerce report late last year. So it’s such an important thing for people to be able to embed in work, because it provides stability, obviously it provides some level of financial security, and so it’s just essential. So we know that people who are previously incarcerated are twice as likely to experience unemployment than the rest of the population. And there are many reasons for that, but that number is significant. And then if you look at relative wage rates, obviously you see a very significant gap there as well.

Jay Ruderman:

I can imagine that people who are coming out of incarceration, they want to work, they want to reenter society, but one thing that I’ve always wondered about is businesses, and their, either desire or reluctance, to hire people who are formerly incarcerated. What’s been your experience on that?

Steve Preston:

Well, the experience is pretty clear, and that is, people coming out of incarceration had a very difficult time even getting their foot in the door. We had time and again, in fact I was just, this past couple of weeks, have had a number of opportunities to speak with people who’ve gone through our programs, and they consistently talk about the fact that they just can’t get in the door. And in many cases, their journey forward ended up with their coming to Goodwill for a job to get that stability, get that employment. In many cases, they stay with us and move up the ladder, which is exciting. In many cases, after a time with us, they move into other roles. So that’s a big issue.

The irony is, SHRM did a study last year that basically indicated that well over 80% of both business leaders and specifically HR leaders felt that people who’d been incarcerated performed as well as the rest of their employees. In many cases, we hear employers saying things like, “Gosh, these people are great employees, because they integrate well into the organization.” The job is so important to them, they are so committed, they really want to succeed. And so you find this different kind of ethos among a lot of people who’ve had this challenge getting employment, because they see the job as something that’s just so essential to their future, and for a different kind of life than they’ve had historically.

But even as many employers say those people make very good employers, it doesn’t always translate into their hiring people who’ve had a history of incarceration. And unfortunately, because we don’t do a great job at helping people move from incarceration into society, and into a place where they can take care of themselves, a lot of those negative narratives, I think, become a self-fulfilling prophecy, because we don’t believe in what’s possible, we don’t look at the evidence, and we don’t have systems, or structures to support them.

And so at a national level, I think one of the most important things we could be doing is changing the narrative on what is possible, number one. And once we believe in what’s possible, looking at evidence, and doing what it takes to help people move forward. If somebody is coming out of incarceration, they are more likely to have a lower level of education, other kinds of challenges in life. Many women, if you look at people in women’s prisons, have a history of abuse. In many cases, that led to drug addiction. And we also see people with a higher level of learning disabilities, and some of those other challenges. And when you have a preponderance of those kinds of issues, when somebody is trying to reenter society and move forward, we have to make sure that we support them in addressing those issues, and moving beyond them. So those are the personal issues.

They also come up with no housing, no cash, many kinds… No networks, no transportation, all of these other impediments, which are just things that we all take for granted, which makes it very difficult for people just to have a normal life. And then layer on top of that, basic job skills. So if we can help people stabilize, and we can help them get those foundational supports early on, and get training in a job, that stability, and that support completely changes the game for those people as they’re looking to walk that road to a better life, and move beyond the need for all of those supports. Because once somebody gets a decent job, and they can take care of themselves, and they’re moving to a different place, a lot of that stuff moves into the rearview mirror. But we need to give them the support and the time to move to that better place, and that support has to be relevant to the needs that they have.

Jay Ruderman:

So you’ve had vast experience in the private sector running companies. Talk about some of the successes with companies that you’ve been able to pick up the phone and talk to, and say, “You should give this a shot. This will work for your company.”

Steve Preston:

So there are a number of companies out there that have made it part of their mission to do this, and increasingly… There’s a book called Untapped Talent that came out a couple of years ago by Jeffrey Korzenik that actually goes in and begins to interview a number of these companies to share those experiences. So we see that validated in many places. The other thing we see is, in many cases, people are saying that it changes their culture, because by having a more inclusive culture in the workplace, and sort of demystifying what it looks like to work with somebody who’s had these challenges in the background, it really brings a different kind of wholeness to the organization. The other thing is, many employers have reported that during a time when people are having hard time getting the talent they need, those companies report fewer challenges with respect to staffing. And when you’re in the middle of a competitive talent war, that’s really critical to a company’s ability to be able to move forward and compete effectively in the marketplace.

Jay Ruderman:

Let’s talk about these employment centers. Someone’s coming out of prison, how do they know where to go?

Steve Preston:

Yeah, it comes about through a number of ways, and in some cases, it has to do with what’s happening locally, or in that state. People come to us, in many cases, through established referral mechanisms, when people are leaving incarceration, if people are working with a parole officer, if they’re getting some other type of support service locally, those people know who we are, and they refer them to us. We also do a fair amount of marketing, so people understand the very specific supports we provide in communities.

The other really interesting thing about people who have been incarcerated is, if you look at the types of training they’re looking for, and the places that they are most comfortable getting that training, they’re significantly more likely to look for non-profits, and other community organizations like Goodwill. That is a place that they find comfortable. Going into other institutions, or community colleges even, or colleges, those may be less comfortable to them.

The other thing that’s really important to understand is that this group of people generally do much better with in-person support, and it’s not surprising. If somebody hasn’t worked for 10 years, or doesn’t have the skills they need for a job, or maybe doesn’t even have a high school degree, having somebody sit with them to say, “Let’s talk about what you can do. Let’s talk about what your aspirations are. Let’s talk about what that pathway would look like. And yes, you can do it. I know you can do it, because I understand this pathway, and I will coach you through this process.” That is an incredibly important element for many people who’ve never seen these pathways before-

Jay Ruderman:

Right.

Steve Preston:

… who don’t know people in their lives that can coach them, who don’t know why taking a class would lead to something. And I think for those of us who have had the opportunity to understand what those pathways look like, it almost seems like common sense, or natural. But there’s a significant portion of our population, whether it is people who’ve been justice-involved, or other people from difficult backgrounds, who just don’t know how to do this, or where to go, or who to talk to. And by opening up those pathways to people, and coaching them along the way, you’re walking into an entirely different world of opportunity, that many cases, just didn’t even know existed before. So it’s really important for us when we’re talking about people who’ve been impacted by the justice system to understand what that human being needs specifically to be able to move forward in their lives, and believe in the fact that change is possible, and with the right kind of support, people can have really a completely transformed experience in life.

Jay Ruderman:

That’s so important. Let me ask you, is working in the Goodwill stores, is that the soft landing? Do a lot of people start there, and then from there, go up the ladder, and find other types of employment?

Steve Preston:

Absolutely. Goodwill is an organization that welcomes people with open arms. Somebody comes into one of our career centers for help, people don’t get turned away. We support people who come to us as they are, with the needs that they have, and we try to work with them in a way that supports them. For many of those people, the first step is a job in a Goodwill store, and in many cases, managers, they know the drill. They know that people need a little bit more support, they know that they need coaching, they know that this may be a first step forward for them that looks very differently than for other people.

In many cases, we actually have career navigators that work with our own employees to help them navigate their life challenges, help them get the development they need, and in many cases, when they look for roles outside of the store, help them get those roles as well. It is, in many cases, a soft landing, it’s an essential landing for many of the people we’re talking about. But in many cases, also those people end up becoming leaders at Goodwill, managing stores, managing districts, in some cases, managing entire facilities. And I’ve met people in all of those roles, and listened to their stories, and it’s incredibly gratifying to hear those stories.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. That’s a very important message. Now, Steve, I understand that there are local chapters of Goodwill all over the country, and that your job is to run an umbrella organization, and I want to talk about how that interaction happens, what impact the national organization has on the local chapters.

Steve Preston:

This national-local interaction is really important. So first of all, you mentioned, we have 153 local organizations. Those are independent 501(c)(3)’s in those local communities, with local CEOs, local boards of directors, local supporters. And that’s very important, because so many of the opportunities that we face require significant local knowledge, local commitment. Jobs are local, so for training people for a job, they need to be able to find a job locally, and that is really an important part of the strength of our model.

In addition, many of those local organizations run programs that are unique to those communities, that we don’t get directly involved with, other than supporting them with technology, and curriculum, and other types of things like that. And as a result, we have remarkable programs that are conducted locally. For example, in Texas, we have five fully-accredited high schools that are run inside of local prisons, where people are getting a regular college degree, with all the requirements. They’re getting an industry credential as well, so that when they get out, they may be trained in a trade or something else. And then once they get out, then the local Goodwill organization will then help them find the job, and get other support they need.

At the national level, we also do run programs that are designed to support a number of locations that we administer centrally. Those programs, one of them, for example, is a program that we run for the Department of Labor. And in that program, we designed the overall structure of what does the entire process of helping an individual look like to ensure that support.

So on a high level, our program design looks like this, number one, you’ve got to do a really great job when somebody comes in the door in evaluating their need, their opportunity, their skills, their personal challenges. And then take that evaluation, and turn it into a program for support. Do they need digital skills? Do they need housing support? Do they really even know the fundamentals of what it takes to be successful in a job? And once they move through that process, moving them into employment, which is something hopefully that they’ve told us upfront they aspire to. And so in that evaluation, it’s not only what they need, but it’s also what they hope for, and making sure in the process to support them with the things they need, and put them on a path to their dreams, and hopefully be able to ultimately place them in that.

Jay Ruderman:

Steve, how do you keep yourself connected to the ground? You’re running an international organization, how do you connect with people that are actually benefiting from the work that the organization is doing?

Steve Preston:

That is a very important question for me, because I am in this job, because what we do moves my heart. I visit our local organizations, and when I visit those organizations, I ask to go to the mission activities, and if I have an opportunity to talk to people who are getting services. I actually just finished, and I’m continuing this process right now, of reaching out to a number of people that we’ve served who have been previously incarcerated, and gotten support, and I’m doing an interview series with a number of them, and I’m going to be launching that this spring.

And I have to tell you, those little pockets of time where I can talk to people, and hear their stories, and ask them questions that I have about what it was like moving through those processes, and what it felt like to them, and what were the things that helped them change their future, for me, those are such rich moments. I hold those stories with me, and it’s just amazing to see people who’ve not been able to realize that potential for so many years, and had so many challenges that have built up over the years, some seemingly insurmountable, be able to take a step back, and say, “No, I’m going to move past those challenges, and I’m going to go back to what’s possible, and invest in what’s possible, and change my life because of it.”

And I just have to say, I learn from our local leaders every day. We have people on the front lines across the country, we have CEOs in different territories across the country, and those are the people that I learn from every day, and I just hope I can take whatever I learned from them, and have an impact at my level.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. And you could not do what you do without them?

Steve Preston:

No, because they’re the ones that do it.

Jay Ruderman:

Right. Right.

Steve Preston:

They’re the ones that make it happen every day. And I said a little early how important it is for people to have in-person support, frequently, I get to go to the local organizations, and maybe go to a dinner where they have participants speaking, or people telling their stories. And a lot of times, they’ll talk about the fact that they may have gotten digital skills, or they got a trade skill, which is very relevant.

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Many people who have recently been released from prison have a difficult time restarting their lives, with life on the outside changing drastically from when they first went in.

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As a part of Goodwill’s new Aspire program, 400 incarcerated individuals across the state of Kentucky are receiving professional development training from career coaches while still in prison, preparing them for their next step after release.

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Upon release, that same career development facilitator is going to meet them at a career center, like you’re in today, and work with them on those post-release barrier removal model that we have here at Goodwill.

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Trainings include financial and digital literacy, communication skills, behavioral health, and any other education opportunities necessary for a successful start to a career after release.

Steve Preston:

But what they always talked about is the fact that, “Jay was my career navigator. He was there when I needed him, and when I didn’t think I could do it, he’s the one that showed me how to do it, and told me to get back in the ring.” Right?

Jay Ruderman:

Right.

Steve Preston:

And that’s where, at Goodwill, we just have an army of people that are out there serving others every day, and helping those people do what’s possible for themselves.

Jay Ruderman:

It’s gratifying as someone who’s a former assistant district attorney that the prisons are working with you while people are still incarcerated to get them ready for rehabilitation once they’re released.

Steve Preston:

In many cases, they are. And where they are, it’s really important. And you can imagine, somebody who has just gone through the process of being convicted of a crime, which is obviously extremely difficult, going to prison, and being handed their prison number, and their clothing, and how dehumanizing that might feel. And then not long after that, having someone knock on your door, and say, “Hey, rather than spending your free time at the dormitory, why don’t you come to our high school class, because we see you don’t have a degree. You’ll be taking geometry and literature, you’ll be engaging in group discussions.” And in many cases, in those places, they’re not only learning a topic, they’re talking about their backgrounds, they’re writing about their backgrounds, and turning it into an academic product. I believe that the prisons we work with, just the incredible power of those programs, not just for people’s futures, but for the environment within those correctional facilities, and what it means for the people in them more broadly.

Jay Ruderman:

Thank you for sharing that. Because you’ve been around long enough in terms of government, you’ve seen our government go from red to blue and back and forth, do you think that we’re going to get to a place where minimizing recidivism becomes a cross-party cause?

Steve Preston:

I hope so, and I think it can be. I think everybody believes in opportunity. Everybody believes that work is good. Everybody believes that self-sufficiency is good. All of those kind of core principles very much support the work that we’re doing. One of the biggest issues we have is, people don’t see what’s possible with people who’ve been incarcerated. And people don’t necessarily understand what’s going to change this recidivism cycle, which is just so desperate. If you look at the pathways that people take, and what leads them to go back into prison, in many cases, it’s not seeing a different opportunity, or a different pathway, or knowing how to do it. In many cases, it’s just because people leave prison, they’re just not ready for it, right?

Jay Ruderman:

Mm-hmm.

Steve Preston:

And in many cases, people come right out, and make the same bad decisions. We hear that all the time too, “I didn’t believe it could be any different, and I went back to prison 2 or 3 times.” And then all of a sudden, somebody says, “No, I see that there is something different.” But we have to put those things in front of them.

I will tell you, in the programs that we run for the DOL, in the first year, we have a 5% recidivism rate. That is astoundingly low.

Jay Ruderman:

Right.

Steve Preston:

But it is because we wrap them with the full support they need to be able to move forward. And the other interesting thing, a comment that I like to remind people of, because we deal with the human issue, we care about the human issue, this has a much bigger benefit for society. If we’re paying $45,000 a year for somebody to be in prison, and then they come out of prison and they have another round of issues with the justice system, which is very expensive, and then they go back in, and-

Jay Ruderman:

Right.

Steve Preston:

… they don’t have a job, so they’re not paying taxes, they may have a family that’s not getting the support they need, and in many cases, we see their children going down the same path. The financial cost to society is massive. If that person comes out, and gets the support they need, gets a job, can support their family, and their children see what is possible, and get the resources and parenting they need to move forward to a better life, it is unbelievably beneficial for everybody in society from that perspective. I mentioned before, we also have a competitive labor need in our country. This is an untapped pool of talent to meet that need. In addition to the human benefit that is so important for individuals and their family, the broader societal benefit, and for our economy is enormous, and I think that crosses all sorts of lines, and checks all sorts of boxes, and we have to look at the total benefit of helping people, and bringing this recidivism rate down.

Jay Ruderman:

So important. Thank you for your mission, and for the mission of everyone working for Goodwill Industries. Steve Preston, thank you so much for being my guest in All About Change. I really enjoyed our conversation. I’ve learned so much from you, and may you continue to have a big impact on our country. Thank you so much.

Steve Preston:

Thanks, Jay. I appreciate it very much.

Jay Ruderman:

Thank you for being part of the All About Change community. We aim to spark ideas for personal activism, helping you find your pathway to action beyond awareness. So thank you for investing your time with us, learning and thinking about how just one person can make the choice to build a community, and improve our world. I believe in the empower of informed people like you to drive real change, and I know that what we explore today will be a tool for you in that effort.

All right, I’ll see you in two weeks for our next conversation, but just one small ask, please hit subscribe and leave us a comment below. It lets us know that you value this content, and it supports our mission to widely share these perspectives. If you’re looking for more inspiration, check out this next video. I chose it for you, and I know you’re going to enjoy it. I’m Jay Ruderman, let’s continue working towards meaningful change together.

Today’s episode was produced by Tani Levitt and Mijon Zulu. To check out more episodes or to learn more about the show, you can visit our website Allaboutchangepodcast.com. If you like our show, spread the word, tell a friend or family member, or leave us a review on your favorite podcasting app. We really appreciate it. All About Change is produced by the Ruderman Family Foundation.